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- 07/10/2010, 22:40 #1
- 31 may, 07
Pruebas de biocombustibles de algas DA40 exitosa y futuro de algas en aviacion!!
Parece ser que ya esta mas que decidido y preparado el cambio hacia el biocombustible de algas, +10% de energia calorifica comparado con combustibles fosiles, motores de helice-piston que la soportan , Boeing apostando por esta tecnologia al igual que Airbus , ademas de ideas de crear plantas de Bioalgas al lado de los aeropuertos para ademas eliminar el CO2 de las ciudades, parece que por fin podemos dar finiquitar al maldito Oro negro.
Celebro asi mi mensaje n. 500!!! espero que os guste.
Aviation Industry Harnesses Algae for Biofuel
By Gerald Traufetter
Photo Gallery: 3 Photos
There are plans within the aviation industry to replace kerosene with biofuel derived from algae. The new fuel comes with a surprising benefit: Planes will be able to fly farther on the same amount of fuel.
Sometimes Otto Pulz has to improvise to make things work. Pulz, a biotechnologist in the eastern German state of Brandenburg, was recently planning a test flight for a small aircraft and needed fuel. After making a number of phone calls halfway around the world, he even ordered a few hundred liters of the miraculous fluid from as far away as Argentina.
"We scraped together everything we could get our hands on," says the scientist, as he holds up a tiny bottle of greenish-yellow oil. "The first car was also powered by fuel from a pharmacy."
The substance that scientists hope will make flying greener is derived from algae. This chemically refined fuel is expected to gradually replace kerosene in civil aviation.
Once they had collected enough of the fuel, Pulz and his team achieved an important breakthrough last month. For the first time in history, a small aircraft, a Diamond DA42, its engines driven solely by pure algae fuel, lifted off at the International Aviation Exhibition (ILA) in Berlin.
Harnessing the Power of Algae
"This material will change the rules of the game in our industry," Christian Dumas says joyfully. The Airbus executive is standing next to a bioreactor the size of a shipping container, as Pulz explains to him how the algae grow and thrive in the maze of glass tubes. The reactor is a prototype, and scientists are still a long way from being able to produce enough algae material to fuel a passenger aircraft. Nevertheless, Airbus is investing in the eastern German venture. "They are simply several steps ahead of everyone else at the moment when it comes to the development of biofuel for aircraft," Dumas says.
Pulz arrived at his current venture in a roundabout way. In fact, as a researcher at the Institute for Cereal Processing near Potsdam, outside Berlin, his experience is in a completely different industry. Pulz was already studying algae at the institute when it was in the former East Germany. "Back then," says the bio-pioneer, "we were interested in applications for baked goods."
Now he hopes to harness the power of algae to put people up in the air. According to optimistic estimates, half of all aviation fuel could come from biological sources by 2040. A number of airlines are already getting involved at this early stage. British Airways, for example, plans to build a plant in eastern London that would produce biofuel from refuse.
Time is of the essence. The airlines know that they have to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions very soon. The industry is only responsible for about 2 percent of worldwide CO2 emissions, or about half as much as the cement industry. But in the public consciousness, flying is high on the list of sinful behavior.
"We need a solution that's as straightforward as possible and can be easily implemented," says Joachim Buse, who is in charge of introducing biofuels at Lufthansa. "In the next two years, we already plan to launch long-term tests in regular passenger operations."
Unlike the automobile, in which electric motors can be used, aircraft will still have to rely on combustion engines in the future. "You're not going to get a 300-ton bird off the ground with electricity," says Buse.
CO2 from Coal Power Plants
The conversion isn't going to be easy. Turbines in passenger jets worldwide currently burn 200 million tons of kerosene a year. But the annual production of algae oil, most of which is now used in the cosmetics industry, amounts to a paltry 10,000 tons. "That's half of what we use in one day," says Lufthansa executive Buse.
Using current production technology, breeder reactors covering an area of 68,000 square kilometers (26,250 square miles), or about the size of Ireland, would be needed to replace total kerosene consumption with algae fuel.
With the help of sunlight, the tiny aquatic organisms convert carbon dioxide from the air into oil. Biotechnologist Pulz plans to feed the algae with CO2 derived from the emissions of coal power plants.
The aviation industry wants to avoid some of the mistakes that were made in the auto industry, such as the premature use of bioethanol as an additive in gasoline. The biofuel used in cars comes from corn and sugarcane, two food crops that suddenly shot up in price as a result of new competition from the biofuel industry. The aviation industry also doesn't want to see forests cut down or farmland converted for biofuel production. "That would no longer have anything to do with sustainability," warns Lufthansa executive Buse, who knows how skeptical environmental organizations will be of the airlines' environmental awakening.
This is where algae, jatropha plants or halophytes (plants adapted to living in a saline environment) come in as fuel sources. They can be grown in places that were previously wasteland. "Algae produce the largest amount of biomass in the smallest area," says Pulz.
Algae oil is currently undergoing a stringent certification process. At the Institute of Combustion Technology, part of the German Aerospace Center in Stuttgart, chemist Clemens Naumann is studying the properties of the plant extract.
"In a refinery, the substance can be provided with almost the same characteristics as conventional kerosene," says Naumann.
The eco-fuel even offers a surprising benefit. Algae oil contains about 10 percent more energy than kerosene. "Planes will be able to fly farther with the same amount of fuel in their tanks," says Naumann.
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan
Algae Could 'Supply Entire World with Aviation Fuel'
Although oil prices have fallen rapidly, the airline industry is still clamouring for alternative fuel sources. In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE, chief Boeing environmental strategist Billy Glover explains how a giant mass of algae may fuel jets in the future.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Glover, given the current low price of oil, why would airlines still even be interested in biofuels?
Glover: Indeed, the oil price has changed rapidly. But it has done that many times before and it will continue to do so. Even today, the highest operating expense for an airline is fuel. It remains a priority to find a way to mitigate that situation. That is why Boeing is trying to open up this avenue of alternative fuel. It can help that situation while having a better environmental performance at the same time.
Japan Airlines is one of the first to have conducted test flights with jets using biofuels.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: It seems that, after a few test flights last year, not much has happened.
Glover: Oh no, we are moving forward very rapidly! The first test flight was in February 2008. But more recently, in December 2008 and in January 2009, there were three test flights in quick succession with a higher blend of biofuel and better performance. We have already achieved quite a bit in terms of technical understanding and technical qualification.
Find out how you can reprint this SPIEGEL ONLINE article.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Still, these test flights seemed first and foremost to be PR stunts aimed at burnishing the airline industry's green credentials.
Glover: We have worked hard and collected quite a bit of technical data. The industry is currently preparing a technical report that is coming out in the next couple of months. That will then go into the fuel specification approval process.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How high do oil prices have to be before biofuels become economically sensible?
Glover: Affordability is always critical -- and we are not where we need to be yet. But we are at the beginning of a learning curve. The price is expected to come down in fairly short order. That is not going to be an issue in the longterm.
BILLY M. GLOVER
Billy M. Glover is managing director of environmental strategy at Boeing Commercial Airplanes. He leads an enterprise- wide team responsible for developing and implementing the company's global environmental strategy. Previously, Glover worked in product development. He has held a number of different engineering positions within Boeing.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where are we now and where do we need to go in terms of production price?
Glover: It depends very much on the types of plants used as well as the methods for processing and delivering that into finished fuel. I do not think there is a simple way to explain a particular price and a particular time. It is all situational.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do you plan to ensure that the crops needed for biofuel production do not endanger food production or contribute to deforestation?
Glover: We cannot have commercialization of biofuels unless we make sure that it is done in a sustainable fashion. We aim to firmly establish a user group of top airlines from around the world that will lay out sustainability criteria and initiate aviation-specific discussions and research. We expect that to result in a code of practice to make clear what is acceptable and what is not.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: One of the major points of concern is land use. Take, for example, jatropha, one possible source of biofuels. How many square kilometres of that plant would actually be necessary to fuel a flight over the Atlantic Ocean?
Glover: Good question, I never figured it out that way. We really do not expect that all of the world's flights will be fuelled by jatropha plants exclusively.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Than let us talk about algae. How big do these cultures need to be?
Glover: The optimists say, to supply the entire world with aviation fuel, you would perhaps need an area of the size of Belgium. We still need quite a bit of research and development work to really determine whether that is possible. So far, we are very pleasantly surprised by the innovation and the progress.
THE MAIN BIOFUEL CANDIDATES FOR JETS
Jatropha seeds were originally used as a laxative, but the plant can now be used, in the form of cold-pressed plant oil, as jet fuel, among other applications. The plant is found mainly in Indonesia, India and China and grows and thrives best on barren soils. It belongs to the spurge family of flowering plants, and its shrubs can grow to reach heights of up to eight meters (26 feet). The seeds have an oil content of around 30 percent. During a test flight at the end of December 2008, Air New Zealand used a 50-50 mix of jatropha-based fuel and traditional kerosene-based jet fuel. The airline said the trial proceeded to full satisfaction. Jatropha-based biofuel also reduces carbon-dioxide emissions by 60 percent compared to kerosene-based jet fuel, while at the same time providing higher energy density. Its freezing point is also lower than that of normal jet fuel.
These green, fast-growing aquatic plants are a biofuel producer's dream. Algae promises the highest fuel yield in terms of cultivated area. Using algae would also eliminate the pesky problem of competing with land used to grow food crops. Nevertheless, considerable research is still required before algae can be introduced as a so-called third-generation biofuel. However, a first test flight has already been conducted. In January, a Continental Airlines jet flew on a mix of traditional, kerosene-based jet fuel and jatropha oil that also included 6 percent algae-based fuel. The airline said it was satisfied with the results of the test. In another test in January, Japan Airlines successfully flew a plane using a mixture that included 1 percent algae-based fuel.
Camelina, sometimes known as false flax, is another biofuels candidate. The plant has been used to make vegetable oil and animal feed since the Neolithic era. Now biofuel-makers want to use it to power jets. On January 30, Japan Airlines conducted a test flight in which a single jet engine was fuelled using a mix of various biofuels. The largest portion of the mixture comprised camelina, although small amounts of jatropha- and algae-based fuels were also used.
Salt-tolerant halophytes like salicornia grow primarily along the coastlines of the Northern Hemisphere. Like algae, they have the advantage that their use in the mass production of biofuels would not take agricultural land away from food crops. But again like algae, these "third-generation" biofuels require considerable research and development before they can be used by jets.
Oil from coconuts and the babassu palm have also been used in tests of biofuels for aircraft. During the first trial flight in February 2007, Virgin Atlantic powered one of the four engines on a 747 flight from London to Amsterdam using palm oil. Environmentalists criticized the test at the time, claiming the fuel had not been produced using sustainable methods. A bigger problem for the fuel, though, is the fact that the liquid starts to thicken at just minus 5 degrees Celsius (23 degrees Fahrenheit). Currently it doesn't appear feasible to use palm oil-derived biofuels in jets.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: The biofuels will be blended with traditional kerosene-based jet fuel. What ratio is being planned?
Glover: The fuel specification that is being considered would allow up to a 50 percent mix. Whether one would actually be able to achieve this number with an initial commercial offering will depend very much on supply availability. But over time we actually expect it to increase to even beyond 50 percent.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: How do you plan to make sure the different types of fuel are mixed properly and do not clog the plane's fuel lines?
Glover: The mix is done outside the plane before the fuel has entered into the fuel distribution system. At that point the blend is indistinguishable in performance characteristics from traditional jet fuel. No changes are required to the airplanes; no additional infrastructure is needed at the airports.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: The airlines complain that costs will rise when the industry becomes part of the European Union emissions trading scheme in 2012. Will biofuels bring additional costs as well?
Glover: We are at the beginning stages of this and we expect the costs to come down over time. A lot of people are working on it and it looks like it is going to be successful. When we talk about emission trading schemes, we see that the systems take into account the fact that biofuels have a smaller carbon lifecycle. In a working scheme, the cost of biofuels would actually be lowered because one would not need an additional carbon certificate to go with it. The biofuels that can be available in the next few years will have a 60 percent lower carbon footprint than fossil fuel.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: At what point in the future will biofuels be used in the airline industry on a commercial scale?
Glover: We will see the first commercial use in the next three to five years. More advanced fuel sources like algae might take eight to 10 years.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Will the airline industry eventually be able to lower CO2 emissions through the use of biofuels?
Glover: The industry is committed to carbon-neutral growth. When we are going to achieve that point is a matter of some debate. We expect it to happen sometime between 2025 and 2050.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: And what about full carbon neutrality?
Glover: Our aspiration is a carbon neutral industry. We see that as something that could happen beyond 2050.
The interview was conducted by Christoph Seidler.
¿Y SOBRE TODO POR QUE AHORA DE GOLPE TANTO INTERES?? TAL VEZ POR ESTA OTRA NOTICIA:
'Peak Oil' and the German Government
Military Study Warns of a Potentially Drastic Oil Crisis
By Stefan Schultz
ReutersSuppose it runs out? Mishaps in oil and gas exploration are almost routine, and governments have now started to wonder about a future with dwindling fossil fuel.
A study by a German military think tank has analyzed how "peak oil" might change the global economy. The internal draft document -- leaked on the Internet -- shows for the first time how carefully the German government has considered a potential energy crisis.
The term "peak oil" is used by energy experts to refer to a point in time when global oil reserves pass their zenith and production gradually begins to decline. This would result in a permanent supply crisis -- and fear of it can trigger turbulence in commodity markets and on stock exchanges.
The issue is so politically explosive that it's remarkable when an institution like the Bundeswehr, the German military, uses the term "peak oil" at all. But a military study currently circulating on the German blogosphere goes even further.
The study is a product of the Future Analysis department of the Bundeswehr Transformation Center, a think tank tasked with fixing a direction for the German military. The team of authors, led by Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Will, uses sometimes-dramatic language to depict the consequences of an irreversible depletion of raw materials. It warns of shifts in the global balance of power, of the formation of new relationships based on interdependency, of a decline in importance of the western industrial nations, of the "total collapse of the markets" and of serious political and economic crises.
The study, whose authenticity was confirmed to SPIEGEL ONLINE by sources in government circles, was not meant for publication. The document is said to be in draft stage and to consist solely of scientific opinion, which has not yet been edited by the Defense Ministry and other government bodies.
The lead author, Will, has declined to comment on the study. It remains doubtful that either the Bundeswehr or the German government would have consented to publish the document in its current form. But the study does show how intensively the German government has engaged with the question of peak oil.
Parallels to activities in the UK
The leak has parallels with recent reports from the UK. Only last week the Guardian newspaper reported that the British Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) is keeping documents secret which show the UK government is far more concerned about an impending supply crisis than it cares to admit.
According to the Guardian, the DECC, the Bank of England and the British Ministry of Defence are working alongside industry representatives to develop a crisis plan to deal with possible shortfalls in energy supply. Inquiries made by Britain's so-called peak oil workshops to energy experts have been seen by SPIEGEL ONLINE. A DECC spokeswoman sought to play down the process, telling the Guardian the enquiries were "routine" and had no political implications.
The Bundeswehr study may not have immediate political consequences, either, but it shows that the German government fears shortages could quickly arise.
Part 2: A Litany of Market Failures
According to the German report, there is "some probability that peak oil will occur around the year 2010 and that the impact on security is expected to be felt 15 to 30 years later." The Bundeswehr prediction is consistent with those of well-known scientists who assume global oil production has either already passed its peak or will do so this year.
Market Failures and International Chain Reactions
The political and economic impacts of peak oil on Germany have now been studied for the first time in depth. The crude oil expert Steffen Bukold has evaluated and summarized the findings of the Bundeswehr study. Here is an overview of the central points:
- Oil will determine power: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center writes that oil will become one decisive factor in determining the new landscape of international relations: "The relative importance of the oil-producing nations in the international system is growing. These nations are using the advantages resulting from this to expand the scope of their domestic and foreign policies and establish themselves as a new or resurgent regional, or in some cases even global leading powers."
- Increasing importance of oil exporters: For importers of oil more competition for resources will mean an increase in the number of nations competing for favor with oil-producing nations. For the latter this opens up a window of opportunity which can be used to implement political, economic or ideological aims. As this window of time will only be open for a limited period, "this could result in a more aggressive assertion of national interests on the part of the oil-producing nations."
- Politics in place of the market: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center expects that a supply crisis would roll back the liberalization of the energy market. "The proportion of oil traded on the global, freely accessible oil market will diminish as more oil is traded through bi-national contracts," the study states. In the long run, the study goes on, the global oil market, will only be able to follow the laws of the free market in a restricted way. "Bilateral, conditioned supply agreements and privileged partnerships, such as those seen prior to the oil crises of the 1970s, will once again come to the fore."
- Market failures: The authors paint a bleak picture of the consequences resulting from a shortage of petroleum. As the transportation of goods depends on crude oil, international trade could be subject to colossal tax hikes. "Shortages in the supply of vital goods could arise" as a result, for example in food supplies. Oil is used directly or indirectly in the production of 95 percent of all industrial goods. Price shocks could therefore be seen in almost any industry and throughout all stages of the industrial supply chain. "In the medium term the global economic system and every market-oriented national economy would collapse."
- Relapse into planned economy: Since virtually all economic sectors rely heavily on oil, peak oil could lead to a "partial or complete failure of markets," says the study. "A conceivable alternative would be government rationing and the allocation of important goods or the setting of production schedules and other short-term coercive measures to replace market-based mechanisms in times of crisis."
- Global chain reaction: "A restructuring of oil supplies will not be equally possible in all regions before the onset of peak oil," says the study. "It is likely that a large number of states will not be in a position to make the necessary investments in time," or with "sufficient magnitude." If there were economic crashes in some regions of the world, Germany could be affected. Germany would not escape the crises of other countries, because it's so tightly integrated into the global economy.
- Crisis of political legitimacy: The Bundeswehr study also raises fears for the survival of democracy itself. Parts of the population could perceive the upheaval triggered by peak oil "as a general systemic crisis." This would create "room for ideological and extremist alternatives to existing forms of government." Fragmentation of the affected population is likely and could "in extreme cases lead to open conflict."
For example: Germany would have to be more flexible in relation toward Russia's foreign policy objectives. It would also have to show more restraint in its foreign policy toward Israel, to avoid alienating Arab oil-producing nations. Unconditional support for Israel and its right to exist is currently a cornerstone of German foreign policy.
The relationship with Russia, in particular, is of fundamental importance for German access to oil and gas, the study says. "For Germany, this involves a balancing act between stable and privileged relations with Russia and the sensitivities of (Germany's) eastern neighbors." In other words, Germany, if it wants to guarantee its own energy security, should be accommodating in relation to Moscow's foreign policy objectives, even if it means risking damage to its relations with Poland and other Eastern European states.
Peak oil would also have profound consequences for Berlin's posture toward the Middle East, according to the study. "A readjustment of Germany's Middle East policy … in favor of more intensive relations with producer countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, which have the largest conventional oil reserves in the region, might put a strain on German-Israeli relations, depending on the intensity of the policy change," the authors write.
When contacted by SPIEGEL ONLINE, the Defense Ministry declined to comment on the study.
PD el google traductor lo digiere bien por si os cuesta entender algunas frases.
Última edición por F.Alonso; 07/10/2010 a las 22:42"SPANAIR 1986-2012 , Una de las mejores aerolineas europeas de la historia "
"PLATAFORMA SALVEMOS CUATRO VIENTOS"
- 08/10/2010, 10:10 #2
Perfecto ... si dejan las grandes compañías petroleras. Se le acaba el negocio, a menos que también ellos se metan en este asunto.
A mi si que me parece que tiene futuro el combustible a base de algas (más que otras cosas, como el utilizar hidrógeno como combustible en motores, no es pilas de combustión).
Creo que por Alicante se esta investigando con la obtención de combustible a partir de algas y me parece que hay una planta en construcción (o ya en producción).
Lo que no comprendo es por qué habla solo de motores alternativos. Una turbina de gas puede qumar de todo y ya hace años que hay un buque LNG (el Lucian) que utiliza una turbina de gas para propulsión y que quema en ella los gases que salen de los tanques de carga de gas licuado (lo que se llama el "boil-off").
- 08/10/2010, 12:00 #3
Fijaos en las implicaciones del desarrollo de esta tecnología, y la cantidad de enemigos que se va a crear :
1 - Desarrollo de plantas "locales" de producción de biocombustibles, lo que implica deslocalización de la producción y diversificación de la oferta : no creo que a la OPEP ni a las grandes petroleras les haga ninguna gracia.
2 - Desregulación fiscal de los combustibles : ya sabeis que sobre el 60% del precio de los carburantes son impuestos. Los estados se van a quedar sin una importantísima fuente de ingresos. Algo tendrán que hacer ; de hecho, ya lo hacen : los precios de los biocarburantes actualmente existentes ya están regulados, situandose al mismo nivel que el de los carburantes fósiles equivalentes.
Por suerte, el impulso y apoyo por parte de la industria aeronautica puede ser el espaldarazo final para esta fuente de energía. Veremos movimientos muy importantes de aquí a un tiempo. A ver cómo reacciona la industria automovilística.
Hay más alternativas, como destilar los excedentes de vino en la U.E. No os imaginais la inmensa capacidad productiva del viñedo español, y lo importante de este cultivo para el entorno rural.
Yo de momento voy a informarme más sobre esto, no vaya a ser que me monte un criadero de algas en casa...Drinkin' the world... since 1972
- 08/10/2010, 13:18 #4
Que se joda, ya ha hecho bastante daño. Y lo de la deslocalización y diversificación de la oferta, ya lo firmaba yo. Pero no sé qué me da que los que siguen teniendo el dinero se lo montarán para seguir teniéndolo. No obstante, le damos un respiro al planeta, aunque los papeles verdes a duras penas cambien de mano.
No preocupes, verás que rápido se ponen las pilas. Que se trata de cobrar.
Ah, no es por ser quisquilloso, pero la aeronave de la imagen es una DA42, no una DA40...
Última edición por BananaJoe; 08/10/2010 a las 13:29 Razón: Post duplicados unidos automáticamente
- 08/10/2010, 23:41 #5
- 31 may, 07
Si tuviera pasta invertiria en cosas de estas y en conversiones de todo tipo , pero como no tengo...pa tanto poss.
Repsol ya ha anunciado en la tv que invierte en esta tecnologia y la esta desarrollando (como debe andar el Peak oil y una teorica guerra mundial o grande cercana...), ademas de que ya van varias petroleras diciendolo...y nose si los arabes tambien poniendo pasta, por que no quieren verse sin ingresos .
La empresa que empezo fue shaphire energy o algo asi, en EEUU y Richard Branson creo que les presto algun que otro avion Jumbo para las pruebas probandolo en 1 de los 4 motores.
En fin solo pienso en esto de vez en cuando por que va a ser la unica forma de salir de la crisis economica y de paro.
Si sirve en motores alternativos , ya solo falta que digan en motores de avionetas mas normales ya que la DA esa se come hasta queroseno , y ya si meten adaptaciones pa coches de gasofa me veo en el siguiente coche con 2 adaptaciones una de glp y otra de algas xD
El hidrogeno se usara al igual que algas para almacenar en forma de combustible el excedente de las eolicas , y en ambos casos quemarlos en una termica al lado para producir electricidad continua ya he leido que por ahi van los tiros sobre todo del hidrogeno, eso si ahora molara por que diremos jojo se produce todo aqui, no contaminamos apenas y sobreproduccion de energia arggg
De lo otro mira de pm, a tomar por culo tanta globalizacion y su puta madre que solo ha traido despidos, bajada de salarios , sobreexplotacion de recursos naturales y especulacion de los mismos , y dictadores con chuleria , por que detras de todo los monopolios se llenaban los bolsillos y ponian politicos, veremos años muy interesantes la verdad y si inventamos esto y nos independizamos del oro negro no lo pasaremos mal en cuanto pongamos las algas mas el excedente de electricidad ecologica que ya producimos poss que vengan si quieren que tendremos autosuficiencia
Aparte eliminar costes de transporte, contaminacion por accidentes y eso de ponerlas aqui dandonos empleo al lao de casa pues ,es ideal joder.
Lo triste es que casi todo estaba inventado....y hemos vivido congelados 20-30 años en una burbuja de no avances...por intereses economicos de unos pocos.
Aparte veo años de competitividad entre naciones, en la aviacion nos vamos a relamer, tanto si se lia en plan militar, como pelea espacial, como pelea a ver quien tiene el mejor aparato y tecnologia
Gracias por el detalle lo de la DA42, joder pues en plan jerga se suele llamar 40, eso que tendemos a ahorrarnos numeros xD."SPANAIR 1986-2012 , Una de las mejores aerolineas europeas de la historia "
"PLATAFORMA SALVEMOS CUATRO VIENTOS"
- 09/10/2010, 01:15 #6
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